“'F' P_ jobsworth is a condescending term isn't it. Why do you think some people try to demean others by labelling them in such a way?

'P' Don't know Fan but they must be severely lacking in their own lives and missed out on something and then try to compensate for their own inadequacies.

'F' I reckon those who criticise people chosen or selected to provide for the public, would probably like to have a say in public affairs themselves but know that they'd never be selected and so they backbite.

'P' Yes, guess you're right, sad isn't it.”

“by smokebelch:

Black starts Eh! quite a few stations have aero engine derivative rapid start gas turbine generators, RR Avons and RR Olympus units spring to mind. As open cycle units they are not used much except for peak lopping.

Dinorwic is probably the fastest starting generating station in the world. It used to be quoted as 10s-1 from zero to 1 350MWe, but in practise a little longer!

The large metal masses in coal fired steam generators, coupled with large masses in steam turbo-sets and piping is a handicap starting from cold. Temperature raising profiles are rate/time limiting to control both fatigue life and creep.

"Relatively speaking," gas turbine sets have "smaller" masses and can cold start up quicker and raise load......but not fast enough for wind variations, especially the dreaded high wind protection cut-out. Spinning reserve, already synchronised and part loaded can ramp up fairly quickly dependant on temperature spreads!

I agree Drax is a resilient plant able to modulate over a large range of output......but commercially, full/base load operation is desirable.

On line tap changing and reactive power changes are challenged by wind variations perhaps, especially gust emergency trips. Rejecting load from several wind turbine/farms in short term wind changes or worse picking up load from trips is a nightmare. Of course if the £240 billion doesn't run out, the new enhanced UK/EU grid will help. It seems strange that we are forging ahead with planting windmills but no sign yet of super grid beef ups!”

“Thanks Blokey_bloke, your informed views are always enlightening and informative, spoken with clear authority.

Alex Salmond: "Scotland has committed to ensuring that renewable energy sources contribute to at least 100 per cent of its own electricity requirements by 2020, while continuing to export surplus power.'

I know you will have seen this but it's worth airing again:

http://tinyurl.com/3vcydvk

and interestingly:

http://tinyurl.com/6qug9uv”

“Allun & smokebelch there will be more gas turbine generators to be built, an EU directive will legislate against old coal fired stations though I hear Drax is looking at concessions. New gas pipes from the Caspian are being developed with the intent to connect to euro gas grid. Main customer is Germany for obvious reasons. They have monumental storage capacity - weeks, while we have only tens of hours - a few days. With wind being not scaleable (non-dispatchable) and intermittent (after all its classed as non firm) then as I mentioned before, when you get a northern anti cyclone and the windspeed is too low, then as a system you need a 95% backup for supply assurance, most of this will be gas turbine. I know Foster Wheeler and Hitachi have super crit boilers, they claim compliance with EU large combustibles directive. I can't see carbon capture taking off anytime soon, its a 1st of kind system thwarted with problems - house loads are big. The problem with wind is are 3 fold, its sold as a CO2 reducer and its not, its not scaleable and its intermittent, this gives a 4th - cost. Allun, I know that there is a consultancy in the City who claim wind costs less than my figures, but those guys are Oxbridge 30's whizz kids and are Greenpeace supporters and these City financiers were also hedge fund managers the sort that ruined the economy that made profits on falling share prices, the cost per MWh I quoted were from classic chartered cost accountants with engineering backgrounds - whose figures to trust. So while the jobs are welcome, it comes at huge cost in the price of electricity, so don't moan about the doubling of your bills once the ~30GW(max rating) of w/t are installed. Still working at this hour - design reports - urghh”

“allum,

I appreciate what you're saying, BUT no matter how many gas stations you build, they are primarilarly for base load operation, 2 shifting CCGT's is not easy, alot can depend on the configuration of the HRSG system, type of turbine used etc....trust me, I could seriously go on and get boring and **** about the cons of trying to 2 shift a CCGT, load changing and tap changing.
My point is you NEED a number of coal fired station to handle the changing demands on the grid, whilst I fully understand that a coal fired station is using fuel being on hot standby, or 2 shifting, as I'm sure you'll understand it uses ALOT less fuel doing this, but I'm afraid they are an integral part of our national grid and will be for many years.
When I was in the control room at Drax, we could tell what time of day or night it was, just by load demand on the grid, we regularly had to put an extra 400Mw on the grid when Coronation St finished, due to all the kettles being put on up and down the country, there is simply not the flexibility to do that as efficiently with CCGT's or HRSG plant”

“Smokebelch, does this help below?

@allun
"It's not well publicised but the government is desperate for new build gas fired generators to increasing back up the fickle wind."
I'm not sure what you mean with that statement

Chris Huhne, secretary of state for energy and climate change, invited the construction of new gas-fired power stations with a promise that a new "emissions performance standard" would be set at a rate that favoured gas but blocked new coal-fired power. He promised this new regulation would not be reviewed until 2015, and any revision would not be retroactive, giving gas companies a clear window for investment.

Huhne's comments made clear one of the reasons behind the government's encouragement of new gas-fired power – that new gas power stations take only about 18 months to build. Ministers are concerned that as many of the older coal-fired power stations are taken out of service in the next few years, there could be an "energy gap" between demand for electricity and supply. As putting up new gas-fired power stations is quick compared with wind turbines or nuclear reactors, gas is now the favoured option if ministers fear there is any likelihood of suppliers failing to "keep the lights on".

There could be a lot of investor's fingers burnt if the wind drops out of the sails........ The uncertainty of the Eurozone and the difficulties with the € may blight the unbelievably massive subsidy gravy train........no doubt as usual, the UK will stagger in last still trying to spend money we may no longer have. In these times of austerity, wind mills are the last requirement for the UK, needing low energy prices in order to produce exports.

http://tinyurl.com/73ekxfl”

“p_rhana

cant you just s*d off if you've got nothing grown up to say please?
adults talking”

“As the shale gas burns, Immingham begins to go

Glug

G L u g

G L U g

G L U G

Much better to sit in the back garden and watch the windmills go round and round and round and round as they pump out the Watts not Faraday or Faraweek or even Farayear but Farever 'n' ever…….. amen.”

“http://tinyurl.com/6utp7jg

Surely those workers will be flocking to the UK, to build the turbines before shale gas cripples the industry LOL.

BBC File on 4, 10 October, 2011. (Listen again on BBC iPlayer).

Industry and many energy experts are increasingly concerned that Britain's over-ambitious, unilateral renewables targets and Green taxes will damage British industry and lead to rapidly growing levels of fuel poverty. 1

Even the BBC has picked up on this. This programme devotes much of its time to examining whether the 'big 6' mainly foreign-owned energy conglomerates are guilty of "tacit collusion" in maintaining very high profits and running a market that is opaque even to the regulator.

It does, however, briefly challenge Energy Minister Chris Huhne on his faith position that the UK's very high green taxes will not damage British industry and lead to the export of jobs. 2

Huhne's views are strongly disputed by industry. The programme notes that, "In ceramics, a survey of companies found that half expected the impact of one tax alone to exceed their current profits."

We hear the usual conference soundbites from the Energy Minister, that he is, "...determined to get tough with the big 6 companies". But he is forced to admit that it is the big 6 who are required to shell out the minimum of £200 billion that is required to invest in new generating capacity (no mention of the equally large sums needed to restructure the grid to deal with wind).

The reality is that however much Chris Huhne talks the talk, the big 6 have government over a barrel when it comes to delivering policy.

We are already seeing this as energy companies threaten to withdraw from vital new nuclear and CCS, and Centrica holds the government to ransome over the vital new gas build. 3

Whatever Chris Huhne's righteous Green beliefs, it is not wind power that is going to keep the lights on or the elderly and disabled warm this or any other winter.

http://tinyurl.com/6ti



http://tinyurl.com/76yp724

One drawback to wind turbine electric power is that it is "non-dispatchable"—that is, it is not capable of being turned on and off or increased or decreased on demand, such as hydroelectric or gas turbine generation. Wind turbine power is termed an "intermittent renewable" source of electric power, available when the wind blows, and variable even then. Wind turbine power generation occurs between the cut-in-speed—the lowest velocity at which useable electric power is generated, usually 3 to 5 m/s—and the cut-out speed, some 25 to 30 m/s, beyond which the wind turbine may be damaged. (See the December 2009 article, "Fitting a Pitch," for a discussion of how these limits are controlled by varying the pitch of the wind turbine blades.)

As an example of the fast swings in power production from wind farms, NorthWestern Energy in Montana has reported that its farm at Judith Gap can ramp up from zero to 131 MW in 10 minutes—and ramped down from 121 MW to zero in a similar time.

To mitigate against such variability, NorthWestern Energy has installed six Pratt & Whitney Power Systems FT8 gas turbines, each at 25 MW and a 38 percent simple cycle thermal efficiency, at the Mill Creek Generating Station as "regulating capacity," with a call for power on a second-by-second basis. The turbines give the utility a backup support of 150 MW to the wind farm.”

“I saw on the news the other week about a firm in Hull doing tests on a machine that harnesses the power of the tide to produce energy, far more reliable than wind and a lot less annoying to the nimbys than wind turbines, still not perfect for the tree hugging element of society due to the problems it would no doubt cause to our already depleting fish stocks, but for me, the most sensible alternative”