“Having a large, expensive car is an indicator of nothing other than the driver has a large, expensive car. Unfortunately. It doesn't mean that they will drive sensibly, nor safely.

But how do you know that it was being driven by someone who doesn't have a valid use for it? I, when I return to the UK, will be looking to buy just such a vehicle. It will be most often have only me and my wife in it. But I will also use it to transport my increasingly immobile and aged in-laws around. They cannot get into small cars due to their health issues. Perhaps this woman has similar issues.”

“Well to be honest, and speaking from personal experiance, there are surely more appropriate vehicles around other than 4x4s (which were primarily designed for off road use) to transport disabled people around I dont see many 4x4 taxis around which have to be designed to carry around disabled and infirm people around. And having been in one of these 4x4s I cant see how people with mobility problems find it any easier to have to climb into one of these things than a smaller car.”

“and talking from personal experiance means my mother was in a wheelchair and could not walk at all.”

“It is because of the seating and the structure of the seats that makes some of them appealing. Just because they are 4x4 doesn't make them desirable, they have other benefits too. If you cannot easily bend down, nor bend your legs makes many smaller vehicles difficult to exit and enter. Try to get into a Polo when you have limited vision and are unable to bend a leg at the hip and knee. If you can do this successfully try going to the shops with one outstretched leg. It is the total legroom and seat support that is important to some users.

None of this, of course, excuses bad driving, which is not exclusive to those driving large cars.”

“I agree that bad driving is far from exclusive to 4x4 drivers but, speaking as somebody who drives many thousands of miles every year, there is definitely a higher rate of it amongst them, particularly when it comes to giving way at roundabouts/junctions and unnecessary overtaking manoeuvres. If I was pressed to explain it, I'd probably say it's got something to do with the psychological feeling of power and over-confidence some people get when they're in something that is bigger and higher than most of the other cars on the road.”

“Well I drive many 10,000's a year and I have most scares with normal car drivers....as for overtaking, you must travel in the posh areas with Range Rover Sports (I haven't got the acceleration to overtake anything ;o) )

I do agree you get a superior feeling from the driving position (but only as I do as van and truck driver), but if that translates to poor driving, then it would in any vehicle and that is a failing of the in-duh-vidual!

Could it also not be a perception of 4x4 being more aggressive drivers? As has been stated, they are typically bigger vehicles and feel more imposing to other road user when edging out, which you may not feel if a polo or fiesta was undertaking exactly the same manoeuvres?”

“The wrangler You dont know me so please dont call me a saddo my problem is not with people like yourself it is with people who have them when they dont need them just to go to work or use the excuse that my mother or inlaw is infirm so they need it once a week to take them to the shop or to the bingo or social club. My argument is that a lot of these vehicles are on the road for no reason other than to say to other drivers look at me get out the way. And i know people who have them for no other reason then to go to work and yes I do tell them my opinion of the vehicles. As for vans most of them are on the road transporting goods around the town or country. Economocally most cars like my polo are more economical than the average 4x4 and as for the snow last year this happens once in a while but as I drive front wheel cars these still can get around better than a rear wheel drive in the snow as was proved by my neighbour who has a rear wheel drive. The problem with people coming off the road are that people are not use to driving in the snow we had last year.”

“Johnt - I will retract the saddo comment then, in mitigation I get somewhat annoyed about being unjustifiably daemonised for my vehicle choice by so many groups and your posting read as being another anti 4x4 rant.

I guess my point would be, if it was me who you thought had cut you up at the roundabout, would you have posted the exact same post....probably.

Whilst I don't know you and should not have presumed to.....you don't know that woman in the 4x4, but you also were prepared to make some swinging generalisations about her and her life and life choices!”

“If you choose to own a 4x4 then you certain have to pay for it. More road tax, bigger fuel bills, More expensive tyre etc. So if people want one then that's their choice.

I don't think the type of car a person drives in any indicates how good they are at driving. But a bigger vehicle shows up a persons ability to drive more because they take more thought to drive and manoeuvre. You can be a fairly bad driver in a small and no-one will notice.

As for snow... I got out from Waltham to Immingham everyday of the bad weather last year in my Fiesta with no problem what so ever. All I needed was an understanding of how to drive in those conditions. You can put an incompetent driver in a 4x4 in those conditions and they still couldn't drive it anywhere.”

“Johnt40 so what vehicle would you recommend for my purposes? Jaguar: seats too low although legroom is about sufficient; Mercedes: seats adequate size but not comfortable for the distances involved; Audi/BMW: insufficient legroom for my needs. The other choices would include things like the Previa. Whatever you suggest needs to be used at least three days a week for hospital treatments, doctor visits, and shopping too. You asked that the wrangler didn't make judgements about you or your lifestyle, but have the temerity to judge others, as you did in your letter, and implied in reply to my comments.

Banned, that is the most misogynistic statement I can recall ever reading here! Women are not the worst drivers, they are not automatically any worse than any other. I would like to assume that your post is intended as humour!”

“Yes Andrew, it was made tongue firmly in cheek. Personally I wouldn't drive a 4x4, and to be honest I'm surprised that someone as 'worthy' as yourself would consider one. There are plenty of cars that have raised seats and easy access doors that are not 4x4s. However, each to their own and all.”

“Suggest me some please. The vehicle will be used mainly to go from a Scottish village and up the A1 to Edinburgh, three times a week, every week of the year for medical treatments; and the rest of the time for travelling to and from work. One in-law is blind, the other has Alheimer's, arthritis in her knees, and needs a hip replacement. To get her into a vehicle is difficult, to do so she perches on the seat and swings round dragging her legs in. I am genuinely interested in any appropriate vehicle. Due to the roominess of many 4x4s I am a little bit at a loss to know what else would fit the bill. (I am also after an Alfa Spider for fun!)”

“Something like the Ford C-Max or Grand C-Max, or perhaps the Galaxy? Other makers offer similar vehicles. You would get much better fuel consumption and they are quite reasonably priced.”

“Thnaks I'll look at those.”

“My 4x4 has a quote mpg figure 0.2 better than a Grand C-Max and is 20cm shorter.

Why would you recommend and even BIGGER and LESS fuel efficient car???”

“Well Wrangler, if you look at my comment the Grand C-Max wasn't the only car I recommended, but it does have excellent access for those who might find it hard to access a standard car (which was one of the main criteria Andrew mentioned). Is that ok with you?

You don't mention which 4x4 you have. I would imagine something like a Suzuki Vitara?”

“No, what you said was 4x4 were unworthy..........and you should drive one of these equally large (or larger) and as economical (or less economical) cars, just because they don't have 4 wheel drive, but have equally as good access as a 4x4.

Did I miss something?”

“95% of the people I know who drive these pointless chav mobiles pay monthly for them (ie cant afford them) and are mortgaged the hilt in chav mock tudors. Just laugh at them and wait for there house to go up for sale for 100grand less than they paid for it.”

“Brookie, oddly enough everyone I know who has one has a genuine need for one.”

“Wrangler, you haven't said what make/model of 4x4 you have?”

“That's right I haven't .

But neither have you justified why you want someone to change their perfectly suited car for one with no benefits, for no other reason that you say so because all 4 wheels provide drive to the road!

Where do you stand on Scubies, Lambo's, Evo's, numerous saloon and sports cars that 4x4?”

“You can't just say 'My 4x4 has a quote mpg figure 0.2 better than a Grand C-Max and is 20cm shorter' without providing further details. Sounds to me like you're talking nonsense.

Does your imaginary 4x4 have sliding doors?”

“Sticks and stones Banned....are you going to pull my hair next and run of to the far corner of the playground?”

“Ok, so now we have established you don't actually have a 4x4.

Bye bye Wrangler.”

“Get a life and stop moaning!! since when has been up to you what cars people drive...and if that car is suitable for this person, and their day to day activities...i bet your the kind of person that just looks for something to man about!!......non of your business is it!!”

“I thought I would add my little bit here.

The choice of car has nothing to do with bad driving. Just the driver.

I choose to drive a top of the range 5ltr Range Rover. Why? Because it is my choice. You choose to drive what you drive because it was your choice. Non of us need to drive, it is something we do out of choice. People managed for many years without cars but it is simply a choice we make.

I only do around 3000 miles a year so how is this worse than someone who drives a reps diesel around the country doing 50000+ miles a year?

Remember, these are choices we make and it is about time we learned to live and let live a bit more.”

“Well said Andy!”

“It appears the Wrangler drives a V8 X5...

And demonstrates intolerance of other road users!




by TheWrangler

Friday, August 12 2011, 1:42PM

"I doubt a pair of shoes is more than the vehicle tax on my V8 X5 buddy!

And yes you are a nuisance on the roads (and you forgot beeping of the horn)!

And no I don't have a flutter - horses are a mugs game.

But we are still back to the fact that tax payers money has been wasted on the horsey elite!"”

“i think its pretty sad your still arguing from somethink that was over a week ago...”

“That's very interesting Me_Out_Here. Assuming TheWrangler isn't a liar, his statement about the mpg of his vehicle is EXTREMELY wrong!”

“According to BMW the best consumption is from the diesel 3,0 which gives 38,2mpg. The worst figure for the Grand C-max is 42,8mpg. Both are official figures for combined cycle.”

“The V8?”

“The best figure is from the diesel 3,0l. According to BMW the petrol version does 22,6mpg. The site doesn't say whether or not this is a V8. I believe that there were two or possibly three versions of the petrol engine, some were smaller than the 5,0l figure that I am quoting.”

“the bigger the car, the smaller the I,Q”

“why dont you lot stop winging and come and live in a country where a 4x4 really is needed and if you think the driving is bad in GY try here in NZ .”

“Chez7, I'll trump your NZ and give you my Sudan where there are no rules of the road. Cars, trucks, rakshaws, buses etc all on the wrong side of the road, no lights at night, ignoring red lights, ambivalence towards everything that people in EU consider to be normal driving, no speed limits obeyed anywhere, the list goes on. I've even refused to go in a car with one of our drivers after he pulled out to the left passed a line of vehicles the slammed on his brakes and turned right across a fast moving line of traffic. Give me GY anyday!”

“Had to read that twice Andrew.
Thought that you were really describing Grimsby.


It was the rickshaws that gave it away though!

You are quite right though. Despite atrocious attitudes of some road users, we have a long way to go to trump the likes of some of the African nations, or India!!!”

“I've never been to India, the rakshaw drivers here scare me enough without going there as well! Although they are identical to rikshaw we call them rakshaw here. We have 'convertible' ones which look cool to drive in, the ones without any lights at all scare me. We have amjad here too. Often when sitting in the front it is impossible to see at night because of the lucky charms and excessively dark tint of the glass. We tend to stay in at night!”

“Most 4x4 drivers use the car as a fashion statement, when do they actually go off road and drive over bumpy terrain, they are mostly wasted driving to Tesco's and back or dropping kids off at school!”

“Five month old thread bounces back!

FYI I bought a SAAB in the end. Surprisingly comfortable, and with wide opening doors. Reasonably quick and economical. I get an actual 32,4mpg.”

“Gosh fancy spending all that money and not having indicators on such an expensive vehicle - still could it have been a taxi ?”

“You should have had a little tut to yourself my love. I sometimes feel like that does the trick, especially if you shake your head at the same time.”