It's 'full steam ahead' for green fuel plant

“Wrangler,

Water in ethanol has been a significant concern re corrosion for some time, however modern production standards are increasingly demanding the use of corrosion inhibitors. These standards are driven almost entirely by the single fact that the presence of water in ethanol is almost unavoidable, due to its strongly hydrophyllic nature.

Finally, why has the incompetent GT Team ascribed this article to me? I simply commented on an article. To paraphrase that great thinker of the late 20th century; "Fools!".

Arthur, Immingham”

“The bad news is that last week the EU announced that in the near future, only half of the 10% biofuel content target for transport fuels will be permitted to come from a crop based source.
My guess is that it won't be that long before crop based sources are not permitted at all.

Crop based biofuels are being blamed in part for recent increases in food costs.”

“For 'different', read 'difference'. Sorry.

A, I”

“This has gone very quiet, surely not another promised development failing to materialise?

By the way, Dave, the word you were looking for is 'exacerbated', not 'exasperated', which is what I am by the different between the number of jobs promised for this area and the number which actually appear.

Arthur, Immingham”

“Sorry to be simplistic and definitely open to informed comment, but isn't Ethanol a.k.a. ethyl alcohol, CH3CH2OH, produced by the fermentation of sugars by yeast. I believe it's the basic process by which Brazil produces its ethanol for 'petrol/gasoline' substitution, using molasses ('Blackstrap') as the food for the yeasts. Of course, yeasts, even the alcohol-tolerant varieties, are killed by the alcohol, eventually, so there's a limit to the amount of alcohol produced by this means.

I personally use the process fairly often. I call it brewing or wine-making. It uses barley for the beer (but in Germany they also use wheat). Cherry plums, damsons, currants or even brambles are also good sources of flavour, but the process does require the addition of sugar in one form or another to get a reasonable alcohol content. Most yeasts die in concentrations of 15% alcohol.or even less.

To get the 50%-ish+ of 'hard' spirits, one needs to use a still (as the Kentuckyans and the Irish use, for their hard wiskeys and poteen -- from potatoes, which, of course feed the yeasts with their sugar and starch . This, does requires heat, almost inevitably from a carbon-composed source... In Brazil, they may fire their furnaces with the spent cane, but I know nothing further about ethanol production, but I thought you might be interested.

Personally, I'd rather drink it than put it in a car so I can't advise on ethanol as a substitute for petrol/gasoline... Maybe Vireol can advise? Isn't Vireol what 'growing girls needed, and took like medicine, by the spoonful every morning. Oh... now we're back to brewing again. I believe 'Virol' is 'malted yeast extract' -- something like 'Marmite' with added sugar?? Marmite, of course, is made from the dead yeast which acted on the malted barley in brewing.

Full circle. Hope 'twas intrestin.”

“Dave Grimsby,

If you look at todays wind, how can your windmills possibly supply the entire south Humbert bank.....I think you are whistling in the wind a little!

http://www.xcweather.co.uk/

I agree they are a fantastic engineering feat.........who ever thought up building wind turbines that only generate now and then was also fantastic...... I wonder if the vast subsidies were an attraction.”

“If anyone checks the planning application for this site there is an associated application that is a 3 km pipeline that will be used to transport the ethanol from the site to the storage facilities at Immingham where, I assume, it will be blended with the petrol that is shipped through those docks for distribution throughout the NE. Now I'm not sure, but usually companies don't invest that kind of money without knowing the investment won't fall apart really quickly?

Ethanol is corrosive to steel (not entirely sure of the mechanism) which is why it can't be distributed in the existing petrol infrastructure (wrong steel or can't treat it etc). This is further exasperated by the fact ethanol is hygroscopic (it attracts water), so if it contacts any air it will absorb the moisture that is carries with it (all ambient air carries water vapour). Everytime the ethanol is transferred from storage tank to storage tank it collects water by contacting the air and these big tanks (10 000 m3) are too big to provide controlled atmospheres. The Brazilians have mastered using hydrous ethanol 95% ethanol 5% water, this is less of an issue, however the speed with which the car fleet changes and the time it takes the EU government to issue fuel specs we are unlikely to see hydrous ethanol at our pumps any time soon. It will be some years (I believe) before E85 pumps become common place (there is a handful in the entire country) producing fuel that can be used by flex fuel cars.

As for the arguement on Wind Power etc, I have been to Butlins Skegness the past 2 years for a break with the kids and I marvelled when looking out at the sea and watching the wind farm which is producing enough electricity for domestic use for the entire South Humber bank, a fantastic engineering feat.

My comment about my diesel car was slightly tongue in cheek, I already make my own biodiesel using waste oil from a couple of the take aways in town, my production cost is about 65p/Litre and Mr Brown kindly gave me a personal allowance of 2500L/yr tax free! Not the most exciting hobby in the world but I feel I am doing my bit to save the planet!

Happy motoring.”

“Jim, I'm not saying that it is not transported by road in your part of the world.

I am saying that it *CAN* be transported by pipeline if you want to.

Please explain the mechanism by which condensation occurs inside a pipe!

This is what I do for a living Jim - Condensation of water can only occur if a gas containing water is cooled or compressed below the dewpoint of the water in the gas at which point condensation will occure. As with any pipeline transporting a gas or liquid that that cannot be mixed with water, the pipeline would be dried with Nitrogen (or heated Nitrogen or a suitable solvent ) and then commissioned on what ever you want to put into the line.

If the Ethanol is dry going in, I can assure you it will be dry coming out - that is how pipes work!!!”

“Sorry Wrangler the fact is Ethanol is not transported by pipe line because it will pick up water. Condensation happens & pipe lines gather moisture. In this part of the world it always goes by tanker.”

“Jim. Regina. I agree with your comment about the sustainability of a plant to produce any ammount of ethanol which would be financialy viable.

I believe the fact that these plants are planned near to the ports suggests that this fuel may be loaded onto tankers for export also it is convenient for cheap subsidised wheat from France and other E U countries who are paid higher subsidies than British farmers, this imbalance in E U subsidies is caused by our very own labour government failing to claim money that we were entitled to.
Over the past 20 years or so the E U has forced british farmers to take valuable land out of production, this land should have been farmed to provide alternative crops but if they hadn't taken this land out production they would have lost the reduced subsidies that they were to get.

Finaly Dave. Grimsby. Your diesel car will run on rape seed oil, another crop grown on food producing land.”